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Post by cbdroege on Mar 23, 2017 3:52:46 GMT -8
My request for advice might sound a bit odd, stick with me. I've found lots of advice, here and other places, for voice actors just starting out, and wanting to get into online voice acting, but that's not me. I need to know how to be a professional who is stepping down to online-booked home-studio only performances. Reading The demo-reel advice thread helped me realize that I don't really know everything I need to know (which is hard to admit, especially when I feel like the oldest person in the community) but I also don't need the same kind of information that a fresh amature does. I did go to school for 7 years to learn the craft (technically it was in Broadcast Performance, not Dramatic, but a lot of the skills carry over) Some background. I went over some of this in my intro, but as a recap: I've been voice acting since the 90s. Most of my work was in live broadcasts and sports, but I've also done documentaries and lots of commercials and station IDs and that kind of stuff (if you've watched any local television in Cincinnati in the last 20 years, you've probably heard my voice in a commercial at some point). Every job I worked previous to 2013 was in a studio or a sound booth with a live director and a support team. Now I find myself across an ocean (moved to Germany to follow my wife's career) and in a place where no one needs the type of work I was doing, So I decked out a room in our new apartment with all the equipment I would need, dusted off my ancient recording and editing skills, and started looking for work online. For a year or so, I just did ACX audiobooks, which pays steadily, but not much, and some Voicebunny stuff here and there (which is frustrating because I never get credited for that work). I feel like I'm doing okay, but I'm a little frustrated by the speed. It's tough to build momentum and make myself known in this environment. Even as a seasoned professional, getting into online acting has been rough and slow. I don't mind the low pay; I knew that that would happen when I made this switch, but I wasn't expecting how hard it would be to be taken seriously and recognized as a professional. I started doing a podcast to help showcase my voice, but I, apparently, do not know how to promote it because after a year, I still only have like three listeners, :/ I've never had to market myself in quite this way before, and a lot of my knowledge of the craft is nearly 20 years old. So: Does anyone have any tips or pointers for a former studio/broadcast professional who is sort-of leaning back from that to enter the current arena of online voice performance? Is there a place I can find jobs where my experience will be more valued than it is on ACX and Voicebunny? Any help for an old man?  Thanks in advance.  |
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Post by Rebekah Amber Clark on Mar 23, 2017 6:32:48 GMT -8
I need to know how to be a professional who is stepping down to online-booked home-studio only performances. I don't mind the low pay; I knew that that would happen when I made this switch, but I wasn't expecting how hard it would be to be taken seriously and recognized as a professional. Can I be brutally honest here? =) As long as you yourself see it as a "step down" you're operating from a position where it will be next to impossible to get anyone *else* to see it any other way. |
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Post by cbdroege on Mar 23, 2017 7:28:57 GMT -8
Please, be honest, yes. I might need help figuring out my own feelings here, if those are the problem. I don't think I mean it as a lesser thing, I changed it to 'lean back' while I was writing, but I guess I didn't catch all the instances. It's like the 'step down' from Film Actor to Television actor. It's not lesser. It's a different, but related, job that pays less, and that most people see as being at a lower place on the totem pole of the profession, as it were. In fact, I saw it as a great opportunity to finally do something credited, since so much of my past work was commercials and corporate phone systems and other uncredited type work, the opportunity to do some audiobooks and indie-games, in which I would actually get my name on things was really exciting, but the way I've been treated since making the switch; Maybe I just haven't found the right places online, but at Voicebunny especially, I get talked down to A LOT. No one else sees what I've done as a 'step down' because they don't know me and don't know where I stepped from. They see me as a nobody amature, which feels weird. In general, I feel like maybe the producers are not as professional in this space as in the spaces I was used to, which makes sense, right, if they were seasoned professionals, they would be working with a studio in Chicago or LA, not online. But that's not really my issue. I might be getting my own thread side-tracked. What I need advice on is promoting myself as an experienced veteran of the profession. I'm used to just showing up to auditions, or just getting hired because the producer knows me, and I have no idea how to promote myself in this space. I feel like I have something unique to bring as a former broadcast pro, but I don't know how to bring it. All the advice I can find online for working in this space is geared toward amateurs. Like 'learn how to edit', 'control your recording space', 'have a good microphone', 'be available on short notice', that kind of advice. That doesn't help me. I feel like I've got all that stuff down. I'm having trouble coming at it from a different direction, as a person who is already a professional, but who is new to online freelance work. There is little help out there for my situation, or I'm having trouble finding it. |
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Post by Rebekah Amber Clark on Mar 23, 2017 8:53:20 GMT -8
When you say talked down to, can you give an example of what you mean? Like, what do people say to you exactly? It's true that amateur producers and voice actors have access to being able to make and/or participate in projects online they way they really don't in a brick-and-mortar pro studio. HOWEVER, to say that a seasoned pro would not be producing projects online is about as fair as saying that you wouldn't voice act online because you're a seasoned pro. I think that it just seems like it because percentage wise, there's more amateurs out there -- but just because there are a LOT of amateurs, not because the pros don't exist online. Most of what I know, I learned from auditioning for and working on the amateur projects online. Like self directing, and how to read from a casting call what kind of client I'll be working with. It may be that I haven't been talked down to because I bypass casting calls that are written up in a demanding and/or insulting way. In other words, it may be them and not you at all. In my experience, people will either treat everyone with great courtesy and respect regardless of how pro/amateur you are, or they'll treat everyone like garbage, or somewhere in between (leaving aside people who are flat-out suck-ups, but I haven't personally experienced working with that type of person to my knowledge with voice acting specifically.) But mainly, I think, you're looking at this like moving from pro football to college football. A closer analogy is probably moving from pro football to rugby. There's certain similarities, but it's a different sport. So, yeah, I'd highly recommend even a pro football player start out kicking the rugby ball around the lawn with friends to really learn the rules before trying to play pro rugby! Why do I say that? Voice acting is voice acting, right? Well, true... But so is "kicking/throwing a ball around on the grass". In online voice acting amateur projects since circa 2010 and then (finally!) professional work, I have yet to even once be live directed for a single role. Now, maybe I'm just that one exception to the rule, but I don't think so. So, having to self direct is the first major difference. This doesn't just mean, being able to read lines in a convincing way without being given instructions first by your director. If it did, directors would come in, give instructions, and leave for the day! That would just about put them out of a very necessary job. =) You also have to be able to self-critique what you sound like when you play it back, and then know what needs changing and how to change it. The second thing, as you're all too keenly aware, is being your own agent, PR person, and advertisement agency. Being your own agent just means you have to go out and hunt down those auditions yourself, which is of course more than finding a site with auditions on it and picking one at random. You have to look at the project, not only what the listed requirements are (accent, age range, etc.) but you have to think through "if I get this job, is this a proper fit for my abilities?" Being familiar with how to pronounce local place names (or having a way to find out) for the area a book is set in. Being able to get inside the head of a character you'd like to audition for. Being able to do the voice filters for a monster or demon you're trying out for. And of course, is it outside your comfort zone? Smut, violence, religious and/or political views, etc. Doing your own PR, at the early stages at least, mostly boils down to a few things. #1, don't say anything stupid on social media, and #2, be polite, respectful, and professional to everyone. Advertising your online freelance business isn't really voice acting specific; so although it *could* be posted about along with the other help for VAs starting out, you're more likely to find that from people offering general advice to online freelancers as a group. Basic things like making your website user friendly and leveraging social media goes a long way. You mentioned people don't know where you're stepping from. Well, there's nothing on your website I could find to indicate to me that you're a seasoned pro, with the possible exception of your professional-looking head shot. Where's your list of credits, whether the project credited you in the program itself or not? "◾Dozens of uncredited commercial and corporate projects with clients ranging from small local businesses to major international corporations." at the bottom of a page I have to find the link to at the bottom of the main page doesn't really scream "I have 20+ years experience" if you know what I mean. (Going to have to cut this "short" (haha, 'short') sorry!) |
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Post by cbdroege on Mar 25, 2017 12:29:21 GMT -8
Thanks for your thoughts I think the part I'm really bad at selling myself. I've never really had to do that before. I think even as a studio actor, I was lucky to have connections and mentors who were talking me up, and helping me along, and I don't have that in this space, so it's a whole new skill-tree I need to unlock. Right now, my basic introduction on my website is this: Looking at it with your comments in mind, I think you're right. I'm describing myself here, but not really 'selling' myself. Maybe I just need to add "20 years of experience" to that page somewhere! Also: Back in school I remember being told not to put specific projects on your projects rundown unless you got credited for it, but that was also back when that kind of info was printed on the back of a headshot instead of a website, so maybe that's changed. It would be really hard for me to remember exactly all of the companies I did little projects for over the years, and most of it was for television stations. I certainly didn't keep a list or anything anywhere, nor copies of the performances. 90% of my work was like "The News is tonight at 9" or "Now available at Kroger!" or "dial 3 to speak to a representative" that kind of stuff. Really boring stuff, which is one of the reason I got away from it for a few years... I think it's a good idea in general to take another look at my website from a sales angle, and maybe update my profile on the few sites I use for auditions to better reflect my experience. |
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Post by Rebekah Amber Clark on Mar 25, 2017 15:52:52 GMT -8
You've mentioned big companies -- would it be possible to contact some of your past clients for permission to do a name drop, if you're either just not comfortable doing it without asking, or think you might actually get in trouble if you do it without permission? Even if you don't list every "the news tonight at 9", job you've done *for* them, you could still say something like, "including major international corporations such as x, y, and z".
Honestly, I think selling yourself is one of the hardest things for just about everyone (unless you're a special personality type that it just comes naturally to!). My best advice is just, what would you write if you were writing it up about your best friend and not about yourself? It's often easier to be generous talking about someone's talents, skills, and accomplishments when it doesn't feel like bragging. =)
I've also noticed your demo reel link really doesn't lead to a demo reel at all. It leads to a list of clips. Keep in mind, as technology gets faster, people get more impatient, and as computers get more user friendly, people get lazier. People would be more inclined to click a play button once and listen to a 1-2 minute reel with short clips of what you can do, than they are to repeatedly click on each different file. At a guess, I'd say you're looking (from people who click to begin with) at an average of 1 to 3 clicks per listener, and probably by then they've made a decision and navigated away from the page.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying to *remove* those clips -- just that adding a reel at the top could help. The occasional person might still want to listen to all of it, and they can't if the clips aren't there! =) |
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Post by cbdroege on Mar 26, 2017 0:57:27 GMT -8
Ha! and here I thought I was being all modern and technological. I was thinking that the technology exists, why make someone listen to the whole reel, when they can just listen to the parts they want/need to hear. But, you make a good point, and there's no reason not to do it both ways. Most of my work in those days was for ClearChannel (the big tv-station owner people in Cincinnati), PBS Cinci, and NPR Cinci. I don't know if I would get in trouble, per say. I can't imagine why they would care, but I was taught back-in-the-day that you simply don't mention jobs like that in a resume or projects list. Honestly, I don't know if I ever learned the reason for it, maybe I was sick that day . I always thought it was because those clients are kind of obvious/boring/unsexy, but maybe that doesn't make sense. I don't remember any details from those jobs, but maybe mentioning the companies themselves wouldn't hurt. |
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Post by Lady Stardust ★ on Mar 27, 2017 1:37:23 GMT -8
Maybe I just haven't found the right places online, but at Voicebunny especially, I get talked down to A LOT. In this particular instance, it's not you, it's them. VoiceBunny is downright AWFUL. I still have a profile up on there so that clients can occasionally direct-book me for jobs because I like money, but after years of dealing with their BS I have come so close to pulling the plug on multiple occasions. They don't care that we're working professionals; they think that if we don't do things THEIR way and follow all their asinine editing rules that we simply don't know what we're doing and need to be talked to like children. I've had reads that took me HOURS rejected by one of their team members for some arbitrary reason like "too much echo" when I've submitted reads in the same exact space with the same exact equipment that got approved no problem. Usually I'd just bite the bullet and redo it but there were times when I stood up to them and said that I spent a very long time on recording and editing this job, and the client booked me directly FROM THE SAME SETUP RECORDED IN THE SAME ENVIRONMENT so they knew exactly what my sound quality was when they booked me (and that miniscule amount of echo is not even going to be audible anyway when it's mastered and placed over music for the final video.) In those cases I've convinced them to at least let the client HEAR it before rejecting and of course, the client was perfectly fine with the quality. They are so insanely picky about how you must have a "professional home studio" and yet they will accept reads that acting-wise and/or voice-wise sound absolutely terrible, *just* because those people have zero noise whatsoever in their reads. Okay then. And don't forget the crazy turnaround times they expect too. They seem to believe that no one who uses that website possibly has other (much higher paying) in-studio sessions to attend, or a day job, or sleep---nope, better be at your computer constantly just waiting to hop on that revision or job the very second it comes in. And if you dare have a life, expect a patronizing form email along the lines of "Time is money! If you are unable to complete this job (A MERE 5-6 HOURS AFTER IT WAS SENT), we need to find another voice actor for this project!) *insert angry cursing here---I have MANY words to say about this website, very few of them being good. I've made money. That's about it.* They will also be condescending and patronizing about your equipment, your space ("You need a professional setup, try to put blankets over your surfaces"---uh yeah, I have acoustic foam on my walls AND a kaotica eyeball, thanks...plus I record for many higher profile clients from home without my setup ever having been an issue) and "You have too much sibilance. Maybe you should try moving away from the mic." What, so you can reject my read for being off-mic? K. The worst part is that most of these jobs pay peanuts, and they constantly pressure you to lower your rates to insulting amounts so you can be "competitive". I'd be a little more tolerant of their ridiculous QA requirements and stupidly fast expected turnaround times if they actually paid competitive rates. But no, they've still got a legion of people who will stay glued to their computer all day to rush to do a $10 job and a bunch of subsequent revisions (since you can't communicate directly with clients and are told to only send one take, there is a ton of back-and-forth on direction.) To further add insult to injury, they boast about their "stats" system which means that if you don't jump on every job within a few mere hours, your "rankings" will suffer and you won't get many jobs. Plus clients can leave you star ratings where they can downvote you for arbitrary reasons like "I wanted the read a little more upbeat" when they never asked for a revision despite having the option. On a positive note, I've heard some people have great luck with Voice123. You do have to pay to join, so I'm not on it personally and can't speak from my own experience, but some people seem to do quite well. They ARE owned by the same company as VoiceBunny, but I don't think they are nearly as bad since they seem to trust that the people on the site are working professionals who can deliver finished audio to clients without needing their hand held like kindergartners and reads nitpicked constantly for every barely audible breath. |
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Post by cbdroege on Mar 27, 2017 2:24:49 GMT -8
Maybe I just haven't found the right places online, but at Voicebunny especially, I get talked down to A LOT. In this particular instance, it's not you, it's them. Oh man. Thank you for this. I've had ALL these same interactions with them, and it's infuriating, and I didn't know if it was just me being oversensitive. I was nodding along with everything in your post because I've had exactly the same experience with them. Just the other day I had a project rejected for "mouth sound". That was the entire two word rejection note on a 5 minute piece. I was on my way to pick my son up from daycare, so I was going to be out for about 40 minutes, and they gave a 20 minute turnaround for the revision, so I lost the contract. I was so mad. AND when I listened back over, I couldn't even find any mouth sound. I have no idea what they rejected it for. Like you, I've almost deleted my account a few times, but I keep it up because I now have a few clients who book me there, and I have no way to contact them outside of the service... Lately, I've just been submitting the exact same clip whenever they ask for a revision, and 90% of the time it gets accepted then. They clearly have very poor internal communication and inadequate training for their QA people. But, as I said, it's very heartening to have my frustration with them validated by a fellow actor. Also: I'd never heard of a Kaotica Eyeball, so I looked it up and now I want one. It's like an umbrella and a pop-shield in one! and it's very sci-fi looking. |
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duffyweber
Member
Posts: 220
I Am A(n): Professional Voice Actor, Semi-Professional Voice Actor, Audio Engineer
Pronouns: Any OK
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Post by duffyweber on Mar 31, 2017 14:00:13 GMT -8
LadyStardust is right - I've NEVER had any good luck with Voicebunny. I think half the problem is they're listening to our audio through a tin can on a string. Their system for selection is pretty arbitrary AND subjective. Bear in mind I record from a professional-grade sound booth, and they still nitpick for a 3-second, low-cost tagline for a mobile website that's gonna be run over someone's cheap earbuds or through a phone speaker. I totally quit bothering. Heck, for a while on their site, they were touting their top-notch "quallty-control," heh. ; ) That said, I HAVE had good luck with voices.com - and I know people are griping recently because they went from taking a 10% commission to taking a 20% commission. I'm not happy about it either, believe me. But I get several jobs a month, minimum, from them at $100/minimum, so I'm coming out way ahead, either way. (It's where I got the gig I'm doing tonight - I'm the voice for the radio spot for a baseball park, three years running, now.) ; ) I'm thinking about renewing my voice123 subscription again. It's been a couple years, and the reason I left was I was getting so much more work at voices, and through other channels. But I DID get work there. Just not the kind I like. Plus their feedback system was wacked-out. Clients could give you 1-5 stars based on your AUDITION. It reflects on the quality of jobs you're invited to participate in. Meanwhile, clients don't understand this, and one-star EVERY audition they don't intend to use. They were using our FEEDBACK as a "yes-no-maybe" marker.  I played with the idea of Fiverr, who now has a "voice services" section but it's not a viable solution, other than just for having a little fun. You MIGHT try setting up a proper studio, and getting some third-party representation. Contact an agent. See what s/he says. Also, Cincinnati!? COOL! I've lived here since 2004. (In Dent, off I-74, to be precise.) I'm currently exploring options myself, looking for people who want to work with a studio out of Cincinnati, rather than LA/Texas/New York, so if you figure anything out, lemme know. I'll keep you posted if I get anything good as well. We're in about the same situation. ; ) |
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duffyweber
Member
Posts: 220
I Am A(n): Professional Voice Actor, Semi-Professional Voice Actor, Audio Engineer
Pronouns: Any OK
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Post by duffyweber on Mar 31, 2017 14:05:01 GMT -8
OH! Also, if you DO decide to set up a studio, I can help you with equipment. (Besides, you're in GERMANY, man! Home to some SUPERB mics! And Russia is right around the corner. You can grab some Oktava MK-105 beauties for CHEEEAP!) ; )
(As you're probably starting to realize, I am VERY much an equipment geek and every time someone says "set up a studio" I drool over the chance to figure out what equipment would go best with their situation. If you have geek questions, shout.)
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